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I Have Noone Else To Turn To It Seems. I

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Posted on Mon, 16 Sep 2019
Question: I have noone else to turn to it seems.
I am asking this on the behalf of my father. So please excuse my generalness in questioning here, I don't really know how to word this in medical terms. I will try my best here.
(april 2019) after being rushed to the ER because of passing out at work, he got diagnosed with afib and had a pacemaker/defibrillator installed. My father is has type 2 Diabetes as well and deals with anxiety.
He has been doing great since april, until the last 3 weeks.

Week 1: Sunday, Dad was having some chest tightness and felt lightheaded, so we took him to the local hospital in which they kept him there for observation only, until Thursday then released. At this time they scheduled to have an ablation procedure 2 weeks later.

Week 2: Monday night, father could not sleep laying down was having some difficulty breathing and was taken back to the local hospital. They then took him to another hospital where his cardiologist is located. At this time, they moved up his ablation procedure and had it done on Wed. They kept him for observation and tried to do an MRI, of which was unsuccessful because he is claustrophobic. So they just released him 2 days later without the MRI.

Week 3: He was home for 2 days and looked better than he has for the past 2 weeks. That Sunday afternoon, my father said his Defibrillator was going off and wanted to go back to the hospital. At that time it was 2 shocks. Immediately before this, he was completely fine and was not feeling ANY symptoms of anything prior. No light headedness, no chest pain..he was actually on just on the phone with a relative stating how great he's been feeling. No later than 5-10 minutes after his phone call is when he said his defibrillator had gone off 2 times. and asked me to take him back to the hospital.

As I was getting prepared to take him over to the hospital, the defibrillator went off 10 more times. During this time he was completely coherent and did not look like he was having a heart attack...but he just kept getting shocked over and over. 12xs within 10 mins. During this time I called the ambulance and when the EMT's arrived, the shocks were done and he was completely awake and coherent. They then took him back to the local hospital's ER/ of which he was taken back to the hospital where his specialist is located.

They kept him for observation for the week, and got the MRI completed at that time. He also got a CT scan done for his lungs as well.
They never addressed to any of us exactly what happened and why the defibrillator went off 12 times like that. I'm just wondering if that is at all normal. This has never happened before and definitely with that intensity. To me, I feel it malfunctioned. but I just don't know. Is there any advice you can offer on this type of device in this case. Isn't 12 times very extreme?

He's home now again but is extremely scared of this thing going off again and I can see that he is getting depressed and is not himself anymore. I wished the doctors would have addressed exactly why that episode happened. To me they are avoiding that.

We are all living in fear now, especially him. I just want to know if this is at all NORMAL, because it's being treated as such.

Thank you in advance.
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Follow up: Dr. Dr Sameer Maheshwari (0 minute later)
I have noone else to turn to it seems.
I am asking this on the behalf of my father. So please excuse my generalness in questioning here, I don't really know how to word this in medical terms. I will try my best here.
(april 2019) after being rushed to the ER because of passing out at work, he got diagnosed with afib and had a pacemaker/defibrillator installed. My father is has type 2 Diabetes as well and deals with anxiety.
He has been doing great since april, until the last 3 weeks.

Week 1: Sunday, Dad was having some chest tightness and felt lightheaded, so we took him to the local hospital in which they kept him there for observation only, until Thursday then released. At this time they scheduled to have an ablation procedure 2 weeks later.

Week 2: Monday night, father could not sleep laying down was having some difficulty breathing and was taken back to the local hospital. They then took him to another hospital where his cardiologist is located. At this time, they moved up his ablation procedure and had it done on Wed. They kept him for observation and tried to do an MRI, of which was unsuccessful because he is claustrophobic. So they just released him 2 days later without the MRI.

Week 3: He was home for 2 days and looked better than he has for the past 2 weeks. That Sunday afternoon, my father said his Defibrillator was going off and wanted to go back to the hospital. At that time it was 2 shocks. Immediately before this, he was completely fine and was not feeling ANY symptoms of anything prior. No light headedness, no chest pain..he was actually on just on the phone with a relative stating how great he's been feeling. No later than 5-10 minutes after his phone call is when he said his defibrillator had gone off 2 times. and asked me to take him back to the hospital.

As I was getting prepared to take him over to the hospital, the defibrillator went off 10 more times. During this time he was completely coherent and did not look like he was having a heart attack...but he just kept getting shocked over and over. 12xs within 10 mins. During this time I called the ambulance and when the EMT's arrived, the shocks were done and he was completely awake and coherent. They then took him back to the local hospital's ER/ of which he was taken back to the hospital where his specialist is located.

They kept him for observation for the week, and got the MRI completed at that time. He also got a CT scan done for his lungs as well.
They never addressed to any of us exactly what happened and why the defibrillator went off 12 times like that. I'm just wondering if that is at all normal. This has never happened before and definitely with that intensity. To me, I feel it malfunctioned. but I just don't know. Is there any advice you can offer on this type of device in this case. Isn't 12 times very extreme?

He's home now again but is extremely scared of this thing going off again and I can see that he is getting depressed and is not himself anymore. I wished the doctors would have addressed exactly why that episode happened. To me they are avoiding that.

We are all living in fear now, especially him. I just want to know if this is at all NORMAL, because it's being treated as such.

Thank you in advance.
doctor
Answered by Dr. Dr Sameer Maheshwari (2 hours later)
Brief Answer:
Need detailed reports

Detailed Answer:
Hi,
Welcome.
This is Dr Sameer, cardiologist.
I can understand that your father has a CRT-P implanted.
The basic function of this device is to make both the chambers of the heart contract at the same time and thus improve the efficiency of the heart.
It gives shock when it senses abnormal high heart beat (Ventricular tachycardia -VT) which is a life threatening condition in case it it is not dealt immediately.
But that frequent giving of shock is too much and the cause of this VT should be ascertained.
Either the VT comes from a abnormal structural heart for which Cardiac MRI was done or from a previously damaged heart by heart attack (scar VT).
So please tell me whether he had any previous heart attack and what is the findings of 2D echo and Cardiac MRI so that I can help you in a better way.
Thanks and regards
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Kampana
doctor
doctor
Answered by Dr. Dr Sameer Maheshwari (0 minute later)
Brief Answer:
Need detailed reports

Detailed Answer:
Hi,
Welcome.
This is Dr Sameer, cardiologist.
I can understand that your father has a CRT-P implanted.
The basic function of this device is to make both the chambers of the heart contract at the same time and thus improve the efficiency of the heart.
It gives shock when it senses abnormal high heart beat (Ventricular tachycardia -VT) which is a life threatening condition in case it it is not dealt immediately.
But that frequent giving of shock is too much and the cause of this VT should be ascertained.
Either the VT comes from a abnormal structural heart for which Cardiac MRI was done or from a previously damaged heart by heart attack (scar VT).
So please tell me whether he had any previous heart attack and what is the findings of 2D echo and Cardiac MRI so that I can help you in a better way.
Thanks and regards
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Kampana
doctor
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Follow up: Dr. Dr Sameer Maheshwari (41 minutes later)
Thank you Dr.

I really really appreciate this. I'm not sure how many times we are allowed to go back and forth on this platform...but I don't care about cost right now. I just want some answers.

He has never had a heart attack.

The drs actually keep telling him that his heart is in good shape every time he's been in there these past 3 weeks.

He is asleep right now, I will ask him about the MRI findings. Is the 2D echo and Cardiac MRI one in the same or are they 2 different tests? I just want to make sure I get as full an answer as possible from him.

Besides his mindframe now, I fear that those 12 jolts have damaged his heart,moreso. I am not trying to find someone to blame here for my father's health, I just feel that something is being covered up here since they won't address exactly what happened on that occasion. He was totally fine before the jolts happened. It was out of the blue, which baffles us.

I will ask him in the morning about the tests. If there are more questions I should be asking him, please let me know. I want to be thorough.

I will let you know.

Thank you DR. I appreciate your knowledge.
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Follow up: Dr. Dr Sameer Maheshwari (0 minute later)
Thank you Dr.

I really really appreciate this. I'm not sure how many times we are allowed to go back and forth on this platform...but I don't care about cost right now. I just want some answers.

He has never had a heart attack.

The drs actually keep telling him that his heart is in good shape every time he's been in there these past 3 weeks.

He is asleep right now, I will ask him about the MRI findings. Is the 2D echo and Cardiac MRI one in the same or are they 2 different tests? I just want to make sure I get as full an answer as possible from him.

Besides his mindframe now, I fear that those 12 jolts have damaged his heart,moreso. I am not trying to find someone to blame here for my father's health, I just feel that something is being covered up here since they won't address exactly what happened on that occasion. He was totally fine before the jolts happened. It was out of the blue, which baffles us.

I will ask him in the morning about the tests. If there are more questions I should be asking him, please let me know. I want to be thorough.

I will let you know.

Thank you DR. I appreciate your knowledge.
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Follow up: Dr. Dr Sameer Maheshwari (20 minutes later)
Would they have to turn the CRT-P device off in order to perform the ablation? I do believe they do for the MRI. I feel they did not set it correctly after the ablation if that is the case.

On this last visit, they did make "adjustments" to the device and his medications.

Is there any other instances in which a device like this would go off repeatedly?It seems very extreme, even for someone with serious heart issues.

Just thinking off the top of my head. This is a very emotional time as well.

Thank you DR.. I truly appreciate this.
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Follow up: Dr. Dr Sameer Maheshwari (0 minute later)
Would they have to turn the CRT-P device off in order to perform the ablation? I do believe they do for the MRI. I feel they did not set it correctly after the ablation if that is the case.

On this last visit, they did make "adjustments" to the device and his medications.

Is there any other instances in which a device like this would go off repeatedly?It seems very extreme, even for someone with serious heart issues.

Just thinking off the top of my head. This is a very emotional time as well.

Thank you DR.. I truly appreciate this.
doctor
Answered by Dr. Dr Sameer Maheshwari (7 hours later)
Brief Answer:
Detailed answer ahead

Detailed Answer:
Hi,
Welcome back.
I can the feelings you must be having and all the questions after such a episode.
Let us answer them one by one.
1) No echo and MRI are 2 completely different tests. Echo is just a ultrasound of the heart to access heart pumping, valves and other basic things. MRI is detailed evaluation of heart for any hidden structural heart disease which are not detected on echo.
2) Yes they will need to turn off the device for ablation but it does not have to be turned off during MRI.
3) The device is programmed to give shock to the abnormal rhythm (VT) and terminate the episode to prevent sudden cardiac death as VT is a life threatening episode. The device which is preprogrammed to sense VT, senses it and give the shock during such episode.
It can however sometimes give shock to some other rhythm disorders like Atrial Fibrillation in which heart rate is still very high and device wrongly senses it.
So what was the event when the Device gave shock can only be detected upon interrogation of the device which I guess they must have already done.
It has to be reprogrammed if it is giving inappropriate shocks.
4) Yes these types of situations can arise and the patient might actually be having recurrent episodes of VT and the device continuously trying to stop it by giving shock.
In that case to prevent such a large number of shock to the patient we change some medication or increase the dose of the antiarrhythmic drugs to prevent VT from happening and thus device giving the shock.
5) After stabilization (as the heart is pretty fragile after such recurrent shocks) we plan for the ablation of the area of the heart which is causing these abnormality.


I hope I answered your query but I know you must be having t lot others in your mind and I'll be happy to answer your questions.
Hope he gets well soon.
Thanks and regards
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Vaishalee Punj
doctor
doctor
Answered by Dr. Dr Sameer Maheshwari (0 minute later)
Brief Answer:
Detailed answer ahead

Detailed Answer:
Hi,
Welcome back.
I can the feelings you must be having and all the questions after such a episode.
Let us answer them one by one.
1) No echo and MRI are 2 completely different tests. Echo is just a ultrasound of the heart to access heart pumping, valves and other basic things. MRI is detailed evaluation of heart for any hidden structural heart disease which are not detected on echo.
2) Yes they will need to turn off the device for ablation but it does not have to be turned off during MRI.
3) The device is programmed to give shock to the abnormal rhythm (VT) and terminate the episode to prevent sudden cardiac death as VT is a life threatening episode. The device which is preprogrammed to sense VT, senses it and give the shock during such episode.
It can however sometimes give shock to some other rhythm disorders like Atrial Fibrillation in which heart rate is still very high and device wrongly senses it.
So what was the event when the Device gave shock can only be detected upon interrogation of the device which I guess they must have already done.
It has to be reprogrammed if it is giving inappropriate shocks.
4) Yes these types of situations can arise and the patient might actually be having recurrent episodes of VT and the device continuously trying to stop it by giving shock.
In that case to prevent such a large number of shock to the patient we change some medication or increase the dose of the antiarrhythmic drugs to prevent VT from happening and thus device giving the shock.
5) After stabilization (as the heart is pretty fragile after such recurrent shocks) we plan for the ablation of the area of the heart which is causing these abnormality.


I hope I answered your query but I know you must be having t lot others in your mind and I'll be happy to answer your questions.
Hope he gets well soon.
Thanks and regards
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Vaishalee Punj
doctor
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Follow up: Dr. Dr Sameer Maheshwari (43 hours later)
Hi Dr. I am not sure if you have received a follow up from me. on monday aug 26th. I uploaded 2 reports to you and had some further details and questions. But I do not see it being added to our conversation list.

Can you verify if you have received the reports and my communications?

Thank you.
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Follow up: Dr. Dr Sameer Maheshwari (0 minute later)
Hi Dr. I am not sure if you have received a follow up from me. on monday aug 26th. I uploaded 2 reports to you and had some further details and questions. But I do not see it being added to our conversation list.

Can you verify if you have received the reports and my communications?

Thank you.
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Follow up: Dr. Dr Sameer Maheshwari (13 minutes later)
My first attempt looks like it did not take. But now it looks like my reports are on there.

I will repeat myself here.

The reports I sent you are his discharge papers from the last 2 times he was hospitalized. I don' t know if they help you or not..It looks like a bunch of medications.

My real question here is: How can he be hospitalized 2 weeks in a row, have numerous tests and an ablation done then have the worst VT attack he's ever had 2 days later? Not only that, he wasn't feeling at all bad right before it happened.

Something does not make sense here.

I still feel that his device was set wrong after the ablation (week 2).

Do the report's I've sent you, have any of this information besides medications?

Do cardiologists have to document device settings anytime there is a change or adjustment? What do I have to ask his cardiologist for in order to get that information.

His MRI came up "normal". He had a CT scan done because they found something on his lung. Not cancerous or dangerous by any means...but something to be looked at in the future. They only information they told my dad after the MRI and CT scan is that he has sleep apnea.

Let me know what you think of all this.

Thank you DR. I appreciate your time and knowledge.


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Follow up: Dr. Dr Sameer Maheshwari (0 minute later)
My first attempt looks like it did not take. But now it looks like my reports are on there.

I will repeat myself here.

The reports I sent you are his discharge papers from the last 2 times he was hospitalized. I don' t know if they help you or not..It looks like a bunch of medications.

My real question here is: How can he be hospitalized 2 weeks in a row, have numerous tests and an ablation done then have the worst VT attack he's ever had 2 days later? Not only that, he wasn't feeling at all bad right before it happened.

Something does not make sense here.

I still feel that his device was set wrong after the ablation (week 2).

Do the report's I've sent you, have any of this information besides medications?

Do cardiologists have to document device settings anytime there is a change or adjustment? What do I have to ask his cardiologist for in order to get that information.

His MRI came up "normal". He had a CT scan done because they found something on his lung. Not cancerous or dangerous by any means...but something to be looked at in the future. They only information they told my dad after the MRI and CT scan is that he has sleep apnea.

Let me know what you think of all this.

Thank you DR. I appreciate your time and knowledge.


doctor
Answered by Dr. Dr Sameer Maheshwari (2 hours later)
Brief Answer:
Detailed answer ahead

Detailed Answer:
Hi,
Welcome back.
Thanks for the attachment.
I did not receive this last time I talked to you.
So the two discharge summaries only has medication list along with their uses, do's and don'ts. It does not tell what happened to him or what they did.

Still coming to the conclusion after seeing the medication list is that he probably had a episode of Atrial Fibrillation -AF (irregular fast heart rate) which the machine probably sensed as VT in view of the high heart rate and must have given the shock than. The AF kept happening and the machine gave recurrent shocks. I can say this because he is on Eliquis(Apixaban) and Mexilitine which are given mainly after AF.

I cannot still make out what was the ablation done for (VT or AF). Coming to AF, which is the most common type of arrhythmia in all types of patients can still recurr even after ablation (if their are more than one areas of heart causing AF and all are not ablated or if the chamber -Left Atrium, of the heart is dilated which continuous acts as a source of AF). In that case the AF generally recurrs.
Now if the machine wrongly senses AF as VT and gives shock than some changes have to be done in the setting of the device. Oral medicine will prevent the recurrence and keep the heart rate in control so that the rate does not increase to very high levels.

Its good to know that MRI has come normal and their is no structural abnormality in the heart which is generally a bad condition. Sleep apnea is just another risk factor and will not cause any immediate problems.

I hope this along with my previous answers will help you understand the situation.
If you could send the initial parts of the discharge summary in which they write the diagnosis and the course of stay during the admission, I'll be able to tell you exactly what is happening and what was done for that.

Thanks and best wishes
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Vaishalee Punj
doctor
doctor
Answered by Dr. Dr Sameer Maheshwari (0 minute later)
Brief Answer:
Detailed answer ahead

Detailed Answer:
Hi,
Welcome back.
Thanks for the attachment.
I did not receive this last time I talked to you.
So the two discharge summaries only has medication list along with their uses, do's and don'ts. It does not tell what happened to him or what they did.

Still coming to the conclusion after seeing the medication list is that he probably had a episode of Atrial Fibrillation -AF (irregular fast heart rate) which the machine probably sensed as VT in view of the high heart rate and must have given the shock than. The AF kept happening and the machine gave recurrent shocks. I can say this because he is on Eliquis(Apixaban) and Mexilitine which are given mainly after AF.

I cannot still make out what was the ablation done for (VT or AF). Coming to AF, which is the most common type of arrhythmia in all types of patients can still recurr even after ablation (if their are more than one areas of heart causing AF and all are not ablated or if the chamber -Left Atrium, of the heart is dilated which continuous acts as a source of AF). In that case the AF generally recurrs.
Now if the machine wrongly senses AF as VT and gives shock than some changes have to be done in the setting of the device. Oral medicine will prevent the recurrence and keep the heart rate in control so that the rate does not increase to very high levels.

Its good to know that MRI has come normal and their is no structural abnormality in the heart which is generally a bad condition. Sleep apnea is just another risk factor and will not cause any immediate problems.

I hope this along with my previous answers will help you understand the situation.
If you could send the initial parts of the discharge summary in which they write the diagnosis and the course of stay during the admission, I'll be able to tell you exactly what is happening and what was done for that.

Thanks and best wishes
Note: For further follow up on related General & Family Physician Click here.

Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Vaishalee Punj
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Answered by
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Dr. Dr Sameer Maheshwari

Cardiologist

Practicing since :2010

Answered : 818 Questions

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I Have Noone Else To Turn To It Seems. I

I have noone else to turn to it seems. I am asking this on the behalf of my father. So please excuse my generalness in questioning here, I don't really know how to word this in medical terms. I will try my best here. (april 2019) after being rushed to the ER because of passing out at work, he got diagnosed with afib and had a pacemaker/defibrillator installed. My father is has type 2 Diabetes as well and deals with anxiety. He has been doing great since april, until the last 3 weeks. Week 1: Sunday, Dad was having some chest tightness and felt lightheaded, so we took him to the local hospital in which they kept him there for observation only, until Thursday then released. At this time they scheduled to have an ablation procedure 2 weeks later. Week 2: Monday night, father could not sleep laying down was having some difficulty breathing and was taken back to the local hospital. They then took him to another hospital where his cardiologist is located. At this time, they moved up his ablation procedure and had it done on Wed. They kept him for observation and tried to do an MRI, of which was unsuccessful because he is claustrophobic. So they just released him 2 days later without the MRI. Week 3: He was home for 2 days and looked better than he has for the past 2 weeks. That Sunday afternoon, my father said his Defibrillator was going off and wanted to go back to the hospital. At that time it was 2 shocks. Immediately before this, he was completely fine and was not feeling ANY symptoms of anything prior. No light headedness, no chest pain..he was actually on just on the phone with a relative stating how great he's been feeling. No later than 5-10 minutes after his phone call is when he said his defibrillator had gone off 2 times. and asked me to take him back to the hospital. As I was getting prepared to take him over to the hospital, the defibrillator went off 10 more times. During this time he was completely coherent and did not look like he was having a heart attack...but he just kept getting shocked over and over. 12xs within 10 mins. During this time I called the ambulance and when the EMT's arrived, the shocks were done and he was completely awake and coherent. They then took him back to the local hospital's ER/ of which he was taken back to the hospital where his specialist is located. They kept him for observation for the week, and got the MRI completed at that time. He also got a CT scan done for his lungs as well. They never addressed to any of us exactly what happened and why the defibrillator went off 12 times like that. I'm just wondering if that is at all normal. This has never happened before and definitely with that intensity. To me, I feel it malfunctioned. but I just don't know. Is there any advice you can offer on this type of device in this case. Isn't 12 times very extreme? He's home now again but is extremely scared of this thing going off again and I can see that he is getting depressed and is not himself anymore. I wished the doctors would have addressed exactly why that episode happened. To me they are avoiding that. We are all living in fear now, especially him. I just want to know if this is at all NORMAL, because it's being treated as such. Thank you in advance.